驻欧盟使团团长张明大使接受英国广播公司（BBC）专访谈“一带一路”
Transcript of Ambassador Zhang Ming’s Interview on BRI with BBC
2019年4月26日
26 April 2019
2019年4月25日，在第二届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛在京举行之际，驻欧盟使团团长张明大使接受英国广播公司（BBC）专访，以下是文字实录：
As the second “Belt and Road” Forum for International Cooperation is about to open in Beijing, Ambassador Zhang Ming, Head of the Chinese Mission to the European Union, took an exclusive interview with BBC on 25 April. The following is the transcript:
BBC：大使，谢谢您抽空接受我们的采访。您可否概述一下中国如何看待“一带一路”倡议？
BBC: Ambassador, thank you so much for making time for us. I wonder if you would just outline for us how China exactly sees the “Belt and Road” Initiative?
张明大使：为期三天的第二届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛于今天起举行。出席本届高峰论坛的各方代表数量多，级别高。来自37个国家的国家元首或政府首脑将与会。欧盟、德国、法国、英国、西班牙等将派出高级别代表。布鲁塞尔方面，欧委会副主席谢夫乔维奇将作为容克主席特别代表出席论坛。
Zhang: As you know, the second “Belt and Road” Forum starts this morning, and will last till the day after tomorrow. It has a high-level and wide representation. Heads of state or government from 37 countries will participate. The EU, Germany, France, the UK, Spain, among others, will send high-level representatives. From Brussels, Vice President Šefčovič of the European Commission will attend as the special envoy of President Juncker.
“一带一路”倡议提出已六年，仍相对年轻。本届高峰论坛为盘点“一带一路”建设取得的成果和规划未来合作提供了良好契机。六年来，“一带一路”成为广受欢迎的公共产品。我们欢迎各方参与，当然，这种参与是建立在自愿基础上的。
The “Belt and Road” Initiative (BRI) is six years old. Very young. The forum is a good opportunity for stocktaking and future planning. In the past six years, the BRI has become a well-received public good. Every one is welcome to join. Of course, such participation is voluntary.
“一带一路”合作正呈现强劲增长势头。目前，已有126个国家和29个国际组织同中国签署了共建“一带一路”合作文件。
The BRI cooperation has registered a strong growth momentum. So far, 126 countries and 29 international organizations have signed BRI cooperation documents with China.
BBC：这确实是个年轻的倡议，但已有人批评中国政府提出这一倡议的动机。一些观点认为，中方希望以此争夺全球主导地位。还有人认为，这是中方为应对经济放缓提出的刺激计划，但会造成其它参与国陷入债务陷阱。您对此怎么看?
BBC: It is a young initiative. But there have been criticisms of the motivations of Beijing with this initiative. There are those who argue it is a campaign for global dominance. A stimulus package for a slowing economy, but one which is resulting in capturing the countries that are involved in it into a trap of debt. What’s your view of that?
张明大使：“一带一路”倡议的逻辑不是追求霸权。历史上，我们就有古丝绸之路，那是开放互鉴的象征。“一带一路”倡议旨在重新发扬这种精神。当今世界面临许多挑战，比如基础设施短缺等等。一些国家仍未走出金融危机的阴霾。“一带一路”倡议旨在为应对全球性挑战提供一个开放的国际合作平台，通过加强互联互通，推动全球经济增长。
Zhang: The logic of the BRI is not about seeking supremacy. In history, we had the ancient Silk Road, a symbol for openness and mutual learning. The BRI aims to revive that spirit. Today, the world has many challenges, like shortfall in infrastructure, and so on. Some countries are still living with the impact of the financial crisis. The BRI aims to offer a solution to global challenges and an open platform for global cooperation. It focuses on connectivity, as you know, and would hopefully give a boost to global growth.
“一带一路”合作不是政府主导，而是市场驱动，以企业为主体。如果全是政府的事，各方对“一带一路”倡议及高峰论坛的兴趣和支持就不会有这么大。“一带一路”倡议源自中国，但惠及世界。
BRI cooperation is not government directed, but market driven. Enterprises are the major players. If it is all about government, there would not be so much interest in and support for the BRI and BRI forum. The BRI is launched by China, but its benefits are shared by the world.
BBC：您说“一带一路”惠及世界，但一些参与国正在表达担忧，比如斯里兰卡。早在2017年，斯里兰卡就不得不将一个港口的控制权交给中国以偿还其债务。我想知道，您怎么看有关“债务陷阱”的问题？
BBC: You say the benefits are shared by the world. But there are already countries that have signed up to this, who are expressing concern. For example, Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka has to hand over the control of a port to China, back to 2017, to help it repay the foreign loans, I wonder if you want to address the issue of the “trap regarding debt” that some countries can get into as a result of being involved in the initiative.
张明大使：我听到一些关于中国“债务陷阱”的流言蜚语。需要指出的是，债务问题是一个长期积累的全球性问题。 “一带一路”自提出到现在只有短短六年时间，你认为把一个老问题归咎于一项如此年轻的倡议真的合理吗？所谓 “债务陷阱”这顶帽子，扣不到中国头上，也扣不到“一带一路”倡议头上。没有人比“一带一路”参与者更了解事情的真相。不少“一带一路”沿线国家的领导人、企业家及公众均通过事实与数据驳斥了相关论调。菲律宾财政部长近期公开表示，截至去年底中方债务仅占菲总债务的0.65%。这是事实。此外，“一带一路”沿线国家不仅从中国贷款，也从其他国家贷款。把其他方面提供的贷款视作“馅饼”，而把中国提供的贷款称作“陷阱”，这是不公平的。
Zhang: I heard some gossip about the debt or the so-called China’s “debt trap”. Well, I must say that debt is a global problem with a long history. The BRI is just six years old, do you think it makes sense to blame a young initiative for an old problem? The so-called “debt trap” is not a suitable hat for China, nor for the BRI. No one is in a better position to tell the true story than the BRI participants themselves. Many leading officials, business communities and the general public of the BRI countries have spoken up and refuted the argument with the facts and figures. For instance, Financial Secretary of the Philippines recently stated publicly that the debts owed to China account for only 0.65% of the country’s total debts. That’s the truth. Also, the BRI countries not only borrow from China, but also from other countries. It’s not fair to say that someone else’s money is a sweet pie while China’s money is a “trap”.
BBC：近来中国遭到欧洲领导人的批评，比如法国总统马克龙称“欧洲不再天真”，欧中关系首先不应是经贸关系，而是地缘政治和战略关系。过去允许中国企业收购包括港口在内的欧盟基础设施是“战略性错误”。欧洲认为中国的雄心日益增长，欧中之间已超越简单的经贸合作。您作为中国驻欧盟大使，是否感到工作越来越难做了？
BBC: I wonder if you would address directly the challenge that you have as Beijing’s ambassador to the European Union. Beijing has come under particular criticism by European leaders. President Macron has said that the period of European naivety is over, that the relationship between the EU and China must not be, first and foremost, of the trading one, but a geopolitical and a strategic one. And that in the past, letting Chinese companies buy up EU infrastructures such as ports has been a “strategic error”. This all suggests that your job is very very difficult in the context of what Europe sees your bigger ambitions beyond this being an invitation to cooperate when it comes to trade.
张明大使：首先，我要感谢你的同情心。但我要明确的是，分化他人不是中国的传统，对欧洲“分而治之”也不符合中方的利益。中国支持欧洲一体化和欧洲团结，这是中国数十年来始终不变的明确立场。
Zhang: Well, thank you for the great sympathy that you showed to me. But I want to make it clear that it’s not China’s tradition to play anyone against another and not in China’s interest to “play European countries against each other”. China supports European integration, and supports European unity. This is a clear and consistent position China has been sticking to for several decades.
就“一带一路”而言，我并不感觉在欧洲的工作越来越难做。中国始终将欧洲视作共建“一带一路”的天然伙伴，因为历史上，古丝绸之路就将中欧紧紧联系在一起。“一带一路”倡议刚刚提出时，可能有些欧洲朋友持怀疑或观望态度。但近年来，我看到欧洲伙伴对“一带一路”的兴趣在上升，态度也日趋积极。政治层面，中欧领导人一致同意推进“一带一路”倡议同欧盟互联互通战略加强对接。
In terms of the BRI, I do not see an uphill battle in Europe. China always sees Europe as a natural BRI partner because we shared the history of the ancient Silk Road. When the BRI was first introduced, some Europeans might be skeptical and hesitant. But over the years, I have seen an increasing interest and a more and more positive approach from European partners. At the political level, Chinese and EU leaders have agreed to synergize the BRI and the EU’s connectivity strategy.
BBC：话虽这么说，但实际情况却是朝相反方向发展。欧盟将中国定位为“制度性对手”，而不是合作伙伴。欧委会批评意大利与中国签署“一带一路”合作文件，和“一带一路”走得太近。欧盟“温柔”对待中国的日子结束了，现在对中国的怀疑大幅增加。您对此怎么看？
BBC: Except for everything you were saying, it’s counter to the direction that Europe is moving in. Europe is saying that its stance with regard to China is as a “systemic rival” now rather than someone with whom it should cooperate. The European Commission has been critical of Italy signing up to the “Belt and Road” Initiative, aligning itself too closely to this. This notion that there is a “soft” approach to Beijing is over when it comes to Brussels. There is a real sense now of much more skepticism towards Beijing. I wonder how you deal with that as you approach this two-day summit.
张明大使：欧盟的确说中国是“制度性对手”，但你忘了欧盟还说中国是全面战略伙伴和合作者。越来越多的欧盟成员国表示有兴趣参与 “一带一路”倡议，因为他们认为可以从“一带一路”合作中获益。欧盟机构也对与中国开展互联互通合作表现出极大兴趣。
Zhang Ming: Well, as you said, the EU says that China is a “systematic rival”, but you forgot that the EU also says China is a comprehensive strategic partner, and also a collaborator. More and more EU member states show more interest in the participation of the BRI, because they see they can benefit from the cooperation and from the partnership in the framework of the BRI. And even the EU itself shows great interest in cooperation with China over connectivity.
BBC：您是否认为这次论坛在某种程度上是中国对批评声音的反驳？有些国家，包括欧盟在内，仍在批评中国贷款带来较高的“债务陷阱”风险。您是否认为高峰论坛的一大目标就是反驳这些批评声音，并以一个更加积极的方式阐释中方立场？
BBC: I wonder if you accept, though, that this summit in a way goes towards China’s rebuttal, if you like. China has come under criticism. There are countries who continue to say, including the European Union as a bloc, that China is lending into very high-risk environment and that will “trap” countries. I wonder if you accept that this two-day summit is designed to counter those criticisms and present China’s case in a more positive light.
张明大使：中国是非常开放和包容的。我们组织高峰论坛的目的之一就是听取各方的建设性意见。我们欢迎国际社会所有成员以不同方式参与“一带一路”倡议。我们欢迎建设性的意见、建议甚至是批评，从而更好地促进“一带一路”合作。
Zhang: China is very open and inclusive. We organize the forum in the coming days to listen to constructive advice. We welcome all the members of the world community to take part in the BRI in different way. We welcome constructive criticisms, and also their contribution of ideas suggestions and advice to advance the cooperation in the framework of BRI. This is one of the aims of the forum.
BBC：最后一个问题。马来西亚、巴基斯坦和斯里兰卡等国政府正在重新评估与中国合作项目的成本。特别是斯里兰卡，该国政府因面临偿债困难，将港口租借给中国企业长达99年。这引起了其他国家的警惕，包括欧盟在内的各方表示应暂缓与中国的相关合作。
BBC: OK, just one final question I wonder you would just address specifically, that there are governments, from Malaysia to Pakistan and Sri Lanka, who are all rethinking the cost of the project which they have become involved with China. Sri Lanka in particular, the government leased the port to a Chinese company for 99 years after struggling to make the repayment, which suggest that this is a cautionary tale which other countries are picking up on, including the European Union. They are saying that let’s just pause for a moment.
张明大使：所有这些项目，包括港口、高速公路和基础设施等，都是我们与东道国合作完成的。我们没把它们搬到上海，也没把它们搬到紫禁城进行展览。它们仍在东道国为当地经济发展服务，为当地人民服务，为地区经济乃至世界经济服务。这才是事实。
Zhang: As for all these ports, all these highways, the infrastructures, we are collaborating with the host countries to build them up. And we never move them to Shanghai. We never move them to the Forbidden City for a show. They are still there in the host countries to serve the local economy, to serve the local people, and to serve the regional economy and even the world economy. That is the truth.
BBC：非常感谢您接受我们的采访，谢谢！
BBC: Ambassador, thank you so much for your time, we are really grateful. Thank you.
张明大使：谢谢。
Zhang: Thank you.